Hello all,
I was out by shawnigan lake this weekend and was in the middle of exploring a timber west road and found it gated but unlocked.
Is it okay to open the gate and continue exploring or is there a way to ask for permission?
Hello all,
I was out by shawnigan lake this weekend and was in the middle of exploring a timber west road and found it gated but unlocked.
Is it okay to open the gate and continue exploring or is there a way to ask for permission?
Legally, going through a closed gate on "private" forest land is the same thing as going through a locked gate if you don't have official business or permission to be there. The same way that walking through a closed door in to someone's home is still breaking and entering or at the very least trespassing. Just because it's not locked doesn't mean it's not illegal to go in. Now, with that being said, if I am on the trail exploring and there is a closed gate ahead, I ALWAYS check to see if it's locked. ;-)
As stated above, gate open or closed, you've already committed the crime being at that gate. Unless you're walking or riding a horse you're trespassing. Always make sure there's an alternative exit if you're passing by a gate, as it may not be in the same state as when you passed the first time.
I always make sure to leave any functional gate in the same state I found it in as well, unless there is an obvious problem of course. I don't think anyone should have to feel like a criminal simply for wanting to explore undeveloped wilderness areas though. Before those crooked land deals when it was still all crown land, the logging companies and miners and other industries all had to get along and share the land with the public and recreational users and public funding went in to building and maintaining roads in the first place so everyone was happy and there were a lot more mills running than there are today. So called "privatizing" of the TFL's, grouping them with other crown lands benefited the timber companies but shafted everyone else down the line and ended up screwing islanders right out of going in to their own back yards. I don't want to go off on another rant again but you literally can not even get to the San Juan Ridge Ecological Reserve by land without technically trespassing and there's something really wrong with that IMO.
In any other country but Canada, the USA included, those gates themselves would be demolished by citizens groups. On Vancouver Island, we are too respectful of what is really the result of a major crime committed decades and decades ago. When the Dunsmuir lands were "gifted" to the Dunsmuir family, in exchange for building the paltry E&N, they still thought the earth was flat, and the sun revolved around the earth. They had no idea of the scope or magnitude of what they were doing. Most involved in the deal would have had no idea of even the size of Vancouver Island. What happened isn't right, and should be looked upon with the same disgust that we view many historical blunders. The back country of Vancouver Island is a resource all Canadians should have access to. For sure, active Falling zones need to be respected, but everything else, at all other times, should be open to the public.
We need to stop bending over and taking it like good Canadians. It's bullshit, so we might as well call it as much. Just because it was "legal" a 100 years ago does not make it right in 2017, any more than slavery, internment camps, residential schools, or other things the lawyers approved of back in the day.
Down with the gates.
Demolishing gates is not the answer, suggesting so publicly is moronic.
Doesn't matter if you like it or not, land owners have the right to gate their property and destroying private property is what gets gates put up in the first place.
Gates keep garbage out not wheelers.
Think you need to re-read my post to understand what I'm getting at. Thanks for your input regardless.
They are not "private lands", they are "gifted lands", and the deal that gifted them no longer makes sense.
Down with the gates......as "moronic" as you might think it is, it's what should happen in a just society.
All the best!
Hey Everyone,
I am really impressed with the dialogue here on this issue, I know that it is a thorny topic with many sides to consider in many different ways. The politics of property are really complicated; eg, how is property performed, how is private property situated when compared to commons property, is it right to take commons property if I leave as much and as good for everyone else?
It strikes me that an important factor of private property is in this performance, it strikes me that what I do with the property is less important than what I prevent others from doing. So, when I see gates on land that is part of a timber lease, I object 100% as the company is performing the land as their own, and it isn’t. Theorist David Harvey calls this sort of grab “Accumulation by Dispossession” as in, building up capital by taking it from others (common property).
If there is a country with 100 people, and on average they all value their share of the forest at 10 dollars each, and then the government representive sells the forest for 5 dollars, is it fair, is it just? Does the person who paid 5 dollars for the forest while knowing that it was valued at 1000 really get to own it in the same way that someone who paid market value gets to own a house?
In terms of land gifting, its again, a weird thing. On one hand, an enterprise has been using the land for a long while, be that timber companies, or golf courses (oak bay), the entirety of the Uplands etc. The individuals operating today have had nothing to do with the original and suuuuuuuuuper shady dealings that lead to the gifting. And on the other hand, the lands were indeed gifted, unfairly from the ownership of the commons to wealthy private individuals, should they be made to buy it again now, or have it taken from them?
Frankly, I tend to say down with the gates, but privately I am going to just turn around and go back because I am scared that I will get in trouble for it.
Interesting points Hamhockracer. I by no means am going to go demolish a gate personally, but support greater awareness of the issue, which I think would benefit everyone in the 'wheelin' community. I don't really see how people who are trespassing, secretly, on "private land" to 4x4 have any moral authority over someone who might get mad and cut a lock. The land deals were, in my opinion, never fair to the people of this country and would not hold water if tested in a court of public opinion, though the present government has the back of the corporations who perpetuate the problem. As Hamhock pointed out, these lands were never "purchased" by Timberwest or WFP, they are just the latest round of land barons living off the mistakes of the past. Neither company could afford a fraction of the value of what they consider their "private property".
I hope I live to see these dirty deals undone. I do worry we are all just being too polite about it, as it is our Canadian nature to accept things as they are, and not ruffle feathers for the most part.
Some reading for those interested in the history of the "land grab". Not the greatest article, but generally I agree
https://dogwoodbc.ca/the-great-land-grab/
Happy wheeling all!
So let me get this straight, you are an advocate for destroying gates but won't do it yourself?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your intent, but you've posted what appears to be pretty black/white.
You want people to destroy private property but don't want to get your own hands dirty?
"Court of public opinion" will not get you fuck all, the residents of Vancouver Island have banded together and showed solidarity towards the logging companies and their willingness to lock us out.
There was recently a couple hundred people that showed up on Port Alberni "Hump" to voice their displeasure regarding the whole land grant and gates keeping us out of our backyard....I wonder...did you attend?
There was a house Representative stand up and ask the questions, "Why are we being locked out of our back yards" to no avail. Big business and politicians own the world and will do as they please regardless of what citizens say....
People are trained to tuck tail like you said, the same people need to realize that politicians are supposed to work for the citizen NOT the other way around.
I wonder, what actions have you taken to get gates opened up to us? besides posting on public forums to destroy them of course.
Maybe educating people on how to contact the proper politicians, sending people in the right directions / avenues to have their voice heard is a better alternative to:
"My opinion is this is bullshit, so tear down them gates"
Gates keep garbage out not wheelers.
I'll try not to take the bait on your rant. You don't know me, or the actions I take on the issues I believe in. I'm sure the efforts I have made on many issues I believe in would easily meet your lofty standards. Again I think you just don't understand my points, but hey it's the internet. That's the way it goes. Keep it light.
I think the gates should come down, absolutely, 100%, no question, and I think with public awareness that can be accomplished, though nothing happens overnight. i don't think private individuals destroying gates is a solution, nor did I suggest as much. If a community decided to rally and take the gates out in their community, I would support that even if the companies involved cried fowl. People sometimes need to stand up for their rights, even when doing so is "illegal". They can't arrest the whole town.......that's how we get things done sometimes in a democracy. Without non-violent civic disobedience, we'd all be nowhere.
Anyways...... I do think pressure from the public will achieve this goal in time if the message gets out there. We should not look at the present situation as "just the way it is".......which is my point.
Anyways.....doubt you and I are gonna see eye-to-eye on this so just have a really great, non-angry, day! All the best with your beer and your meat.
I think "down with the gates" is more of a political statement of principal than a call to action. As in, "Island Timberlands, take down those gates!"
My feeling is that people who take matters into their own hands, ie. bypassing gates or cutting locks, may achieve their short term goal of gaining access for the day, but the long term results are most likely going to be loss of credibility and sympathy for their cause and more secure countermeasures. Whether or not we agree with the legitimacy of their right to keep us out, the fact remains that they currently have it and any path that leads to a place where we have free and lawful access is a lot smoother if we look like respectful and responsible people.
Well said Gyuji.
Lurker I'm not mad, nor was I ranting. I was trying to figure out where you stand.
This is a public forum and company owners have been known to frequent sites like this.
When people post publicly to destroy private property, you have to expect some sort of rhetoric.
I'm too old and wise to get upset about things posted on the internet, but I'm not too old to post about things I believe in, and destroying private property because you don't agree that it
should be private/gated, then that doesn't look good for any of us who respect that the land is private weather we agree with it or not.
I'm sorry that you are unable or unwilling to have a conversation regarding this touchy subject, If you can't handle being asked questions regarding your stance on something then maybe just keep your opinion to yourself.
Good day Sir.
Oh and let me make it perfectly clear, I'm all for having the gates removed or at the very least given more access, but I will not condone destroying them.
Gates keep out garbage, not wheelers.