no rock crawlers arguments. they are usually way out of most peoples leagues. post your own thread.
this is not my argument!!!!!!!!
the argument!
http://www.jk-forum.com/forums/jk-talk-26/better-why-ifs-vs-solid-axle-2...
let the punches fly. lets get it right. not what you like or what you hear, but why do almost every manufacture on the planet uses ifs? IFS (independent front suspension). i know chevy wins the baha every year and they havent had a straight axle up front from for over 30yrs. all the buggies and anything off road seems to be IFS. i know why they use straight axles in the back of trucks: to hold the weight and are tough for the cost. there is less parts so cheaper again. but as far as better off road, unless its an articulating unit, i cant see it. independent keeps wheels on the ground. isnt that where one wants them? the more travel on a straight axle, the more ur on ur tires edge. the IS keeps tires as flat as possible. also IS should also have sway bars as part of the system. thats where engineering comes in. too big a sway bar and when one tire goes up they both do. to weak means not keeping both tires as flat as possible. that bars also lessens the roll over factor by lots. some stats say up to 50% speed increase. some guys dont like or understand the system so they also dont know how to drive one off road. IS is performance. straight axle is for building gas guzzling tanks. ive been beating IFS since i was a kid. they do wear out. try breaking one. good luck. unless u ram it against a rock. those A frames are solid steel.
the argument!
http://www.jk-forum.com/forums/jk-talk-26/better-why-ifs-vs-solid-axle-2...
what is the advantage of a straight axle? it looks like cost. all IS are built for its weight class. so if u want to over beef ur rig to haul more, then a straight axle is a good idea. the pods sits lower on a straight axle. so less clearance. chevy IS has the tightest turning in all their vehicles. from what i seen only old tech and cheap vehicles have straight axles. remember in the 80s u could buy 3 toyotas for the price of a chev. straight axles are also way heavier. especially when u can get aluminium case difs in IFS. IS sit up higher too. means an extra inch or two of clearance. and if u think they bust then u should remember all off road vehicles should have a skid pan. its an integral part of IFS. when people think tough axles. they are talking about beating rocks and stumps against it. skid pan stops any abuse. winch, tires and a skid pan will get u way farther then any other modification. and automatics in most 4x4s will lock the diffs if u ride the brake. not awds!!!!!!!! that includes jeep and explores. can one put lockers in an awd???? clutches also die when crawling. even in a RWD, pull the emergency brake to lock ur dif. i do not know about FWD!!! as far as i know subaru is a true awd.
its all about tech!!! weight is old tech. pre 1975 for most companies. it doesnt compare to the new performance or durability. new metals and better tolerances is what makes a better manufacturer. as well as design. some manufactures build from what parts they have. the better manufacturers design from experience in racing and users. the term commercial! gm is a commercial grade of truck.
from my personal experience ive seen over a 100 broken straight axles and only a couple busted IS. maybe a few bent parts. ask any dodge or toyota guy here if hes had to replace an axle YET! at around 200 per side. i used to jump my blazer for fun and that IS was indestructible. ive jumped trackers now with no problems. neither chev has let me down. when parts are designed, not just plucked from a shelf and welded together they last way longer. that is the idea of commercial anything: to last longer and work better. whats the front end on a full size bronco? we used to jump them too.
i am not an engineer!!!
please post your arguments! just dont make it personal.
ok I will bite! lol maybe we can get into another mud slinging match, IFS VS Solid front axle... i read in the jeep 4x4 performance hand book that one should want to achieve articulation balance, mis matching thing like ifs tortion bars with leaf springs in say a chevy 1/2 ton pick up doesn't allow for good balance. probably why expensive imports like Lexus have ifs all around. Ifs can be complicated when trying to lift when adding bigger tires and any thing more than 2' leaves one with alignment issues and cv axle joint angularity which will shorten your cv axle life. lifting a solid axle is much simpler and often the only issue is with steering angles, for which there are many solutions.
now that being said have any of you ever jumpped a 4x4 with a solid front axle, if you land nose down with one tire connecting first it will stuff that tire and throw the one in the air down as there is leverage from the tire to the spring to the other spring. often this will leave you on your side or worse unless executed perfectly.
in an ifs where one tire has no leverage upon the other (up front) the leading tire that connects first absorbs the impact and allows for the front end to settle out faster.
experiment time i dare you go buy a stock explorer and go jump that thing, those twin tractor beams work good in a landing.
or join island 4x4 and look up the ifs build in the build section, hes building a custom ifs with huge a arms and a completely centered 3rd member. this is being built to handle some of the worst 4x4 conditions out there. but hes also designing it from scratch. ie no lift for tires ext.
i read somewhere give me a few days to look where a gut tried to put ifs out of random things on the cheap and put them int a tracker i think.... not flaming just cant remember every detail... it ended up he broke almost everything in both sets of axles including cvs and ball joints so much carnage he scrapped the cheepo ifs idea and went solid with links.... let me try to find the thread. if you or i could obtain long arm ifs of our rigs it would be far supirior but much more expensive to maintain.. and being a broke little wheeler instead of broken is what us guys are all about..
I like your tip about the ebrake, it doesn't lock the diff, being you have spider gears it will never truly lock however a great trick if you are in a hole and one tire fires is to hit the brakes till it stops the one tire from spinning and allows transfer of power to both,
i suppose the conclusion one draws is really up to the user, I find that ifs front ends bulky and the skid plates dont help you make it over obstacles it just stops your truck. a solid axle the pumpkin moves with the tire so when you get your tire up on something you roll over it. an ifs may just tuck the tire and leave your skid still dragging rocks... any idea if this happens guru?
In my experience, IFS makes for a much better ride, but solid axle results in better wheel contact over uneven terrain. That makes a fair difference when you're trying to get up rutted out hills or rocky faces.
Strength is the other issue. I personally have broken more CV axles than I can count on my various 4runners. At ~$200 per axle (per side), this can add up. A solid axle won't break as much (in theory).
Another point is that solid axles are pretty much a necessity if you want more than ~3" of lift (unless you go for wider control arms, but then you increase wheelbase width). Look at some of the long travel IFS guys and you can see that it would be impossible to keep good camber for the road with any decent amount of lift. http://davidgtaylor.smugmug.com/KOH2013/pirate-upload/i-BLp2rHK/0/L/DSC_...
You're never going to be able to do something like this with IFS http://www.4x4wire.com/insider/ors/indy1.jpg - even though that's probably much more extreme than anyone here is doing.
how does a straight axel get more contact? i cant see it. unless it articulated. IS has way more travel. the 4runner is a station wagon. 4runners are made for the lightest conditions. they are under built because they sell land cruisers!!! its marketing. they also have the worse metal. the pickups have to use straight axle with that crappy steel. chevys cvs rarely break if ever. do you have a skid pan? oh you have big tires. thats why. thats like putting 48inch on a chev pick up. 4runner arent copies of the truck or land cruiser. 4runner is a station wagon. a car. a tracker looks like a suv so does a jeep but they are factory bush mobiles. hard to compare a 4runner with anything other than a car, its light underneath and heavy on top. ithey were famous for tip overs. weights down low in a trackers, land cruiser or jeeps. rovers use aluminium bodies to make up the safety.
and about lifts. theres a standard 33inch for full size and 30 for small vehicles. its all bout that 1 foot clearance. to jack a truck up past the manufactures recommendation isnt safe for the highway. u get into an accident, icbc wont cover you. the other guy will also sue u personally. almost all vehicles can have a 2inch body lift and 2 inch suspension lift. which puts 33s under a tracker and 35 on a chev. without illegal modification. u can buy csa approved lifts. havent seen too many myself. too expensive! so we are back to cost. making ur own rules, just wreck it for the rest of us. skid pans are safer and keeps ur truck motor n frt end safe from damage. only reason they are not popular cause u cant see them. :) anything bigger than a 4inch lift needs a trailer. this is the standard the manufactures of the vehicles were built with. changing them is like modifying ur oven. see if insurance cover u then. its about the factory recommendations. or its a buggy. im talking pre 2000! and ya straight axles are way easier to lift. i cant see why anyone would think u get better traction from one. u lift one side the other goes up. IS only one tire goes up until u max it out. the frames are narrower for longer A frames. torsion bars is the engineering part to make a balance. lots of guys remove them when off roading. put them on when they hit the highway. to all u chev guys; do ur front ends break? or newer toyota pick up? almost all buggies have IS. because most professional clue in that height is just to look cool. skid pan and speed will get u over anything. rock crawling is its own sport. thats a buggy that needs to be towed on the roads. anything modified past recommendation loses its value drastically. unless its cas approved.
so!!! are we talking off road only???????? or are we talking legal??????? i not going to argue with mickey mousers. one might have to go to alberta sometime. i know every time im on on those big highways im reading mph not kph. why do u think all those guys drive new trucks jacked. they are legal n safe. i know if a trucks legal or not by just a glance. so does icbc. fishery roads and all public dirt roads need proper insurance now. that includes a vehicle that is csa approved. the cops state doubling the speed limits is criminal. but under that is ok in canada. just a civil fine. as far as i know we have the tightest of rules for the road other than drinking. its 0 tolerance in most countries.
to trailer or not is the question then!! i do not break the law. if u do ur on the wrong site. this is vioffroad not rock crawlers anonymous. if ur talking illegal modifications and ur poor than a straight axle is probably ur best bet. but if u want to travel the wilds and be safe then IS.
there are limits to leafs springs. i dont know how u can get more wheel travel without going to an articulating front end. heights easy. wheel travel is what u need for tires to be on the ground for traction. and please all those responding please back ur arguments. just saying dont count. sound like blah blah blah. only old dodgers and yotas like straight axel. its antiquated technology. its sad how some companies are still getting away with selling 60s junk still. and again rock crawling is a different sport!!!! its a specialized vehicle. 20 000 or better. 4 wheel lockers, articulating front ends, bead locks. muti directional winches. its specialized and it has its own club here. they all have trailers!!!!!!!!!!
sidekicks and trackers are not imports. they were designed and built in toronto. chev did use suzukis water tight department and also copied the way the body were made. import style body!!! and yes the first bodies were built in japan. chevy bought the light weight body tech. but that the same for all imports. almost everything else is chev. camil had free access to super computers. they were first as far as i know. there is almost nothing in common with a samurai. sidekick was made to ww2 willys spec. they epitomixed the gp!!! a samurai is closer to a chev or toyota pick up than a tracker. have a look. also most trackers rust out at 300km but they will run an easy 500k with only simple maintenance. most samurais wont make a 100k. have ya ever seen a jimney properly spelt. they are the newr samurai. ful on mico blazer. GM does most of the research and designing for Japanese vehicles. just made way cheaper. all japanese manufactuers are out to make dollar first. the cavalier!! gets a million ks, so did my 80 chev van and every taxi and cop car. cavs have full galvanized body (wont rust for 50 yrs). one of the lowest priced cars around and they are safe. its obvious that ones out for the might buck and the others meant to get people around.
thats why they call it a skid plate. radical! try one. ull never go back. steel is actually quite slippery. my pods way up high. its not in the way. it gives me more clearance with less overall height. the tires still moves as far as its going to. so whats the difference if u hit the skid pan or ur axel? how do u get more wheel travel in a straight axel? change to springs? cause lifting just saves ur body. it dont get ur axel any higher off the ground. there is a difference in driving technique to each. for sure. my skid pans not much bigger than a pod.
trackers have narrow frames and big A frames for a tiny truck. 6inches more travel than most trucks. and u could go more with even longer stuts. but the camber would go out. a stock sidekick will take a 6x32 tire. thats is the stock army size. or any 30. some things were built ready to go. jeeps too. remember 1988 is when trackers were designed. id imagine id have to buy a newer jeep to compare stock. and im sure it have to be a certain more expensive model. i dont know. im not a jeeper.
look closely! A frames were designed for off road. they are huge for a tiny truck. the pan is only 2ft wide. i dont see how this would impair my front end. considering it has 6inches more travel than a pick up. thats 3 up n 3 down. my tracker is the expeditionary model. it shows it here. both these do not ever break. considering toyota copied them. same as a chev pick up. i used to race big blocks with the same IS. that 700 lbs just in motor. only cheap crap break!!!!!
u can really see the main part of the vehicle is low in pic 2. the light body sits high. built already lifted.
3rd pic is of how IS on a tracker can be made bigger. those are 37s. to see the rest: http://www2.izook.com/?page_id=60
firstly local it sounds to me like this is one topic your going to take personally no matter what is said. If you want to argue legality I must refer you to safety inspectors, your opinion is not going to cut the mustard. I have personally saw many trucks lifted pas 4" pass an inspection, and have buddies that have worked in ICBC inspection facilities. you sound preachy, like its your way or the highway, and I'm not down with that so if you want shit to get heated keep on with the mickey mouse remarks.
When done right leaf springs can achieve loads of articulation and still retain a solid on road feel free of death wobble. When ifs is done right it can also attain oodles of wheel movement however, I have never seen a long arm ifs built for the road ever. I wouldn't want to jump my solid axle at all ever, jumping an explorer with independent front end is actually pretty smooth. I've never jumped a tracker. dont think I would want to.
fs skid plates are a part of the main chassis of your vehicle. when it strikes a rock or gets high centered so does your chassis, I have 20" clear under my belly pan and 8" under my pumpkin I think, meaning that if my articulating solid axles remain in contact with the ground I can go up and over something potentially 20-30" given the right ground and surrounding conditions and keeping one tire on the high part.
it is really up to the end user what you want to run, keeping in mind that if you intend on running on the roads you must be within the confines of the law when it comes to lift tires parts ect. many kits sold will have Hiem joints for steering which are not legal to run in Canada! tires mus not stick out past the body, head lights must be at maximum only so far off the ground.
point in case before you decide to just rip into something do some research its free mistakes cost not only money but lives!
you asked for facts, fact is BAHA runners want something they can jump reliably, Lexus want comfort, torsion bars or (sway bars) are supposed to be an integral part of all suspensions weather its a solid axle or an ifs. yjs come with sway bars up front to maintain good on road qualities and track bars front and back to keep the axle centered
fact is solid axles work. then there's the old adage if its not broke don't fix it. well fifty years ago speed wasn't such a large factor. nowadays as guru said hes looking a MPH instead of KMPH with the advent of the speeding hyway comes the IFS front suspension. which is designed and built for going fast. the fact they designed one with a differential is not that awesome, they did it for the guys who need to go 160KMPH and still lock it into 4wd.
you got a better argument than that lets hear it buds.
try to keep you feelings out of it I know I have.
i never said inspected. thats u putting words in my mouth. i said sued and icbc. its about the law. this site isnt about being illegal. the law is pretty specific. u might call it preaching. i call it telling like it is. tell ur story fine remark all u want but u got personal again and they will remove this thread. by the way i was responding to shane. i didnt even read yours. tell us. just dont get me involved.
us arguing tracker to jeep is like argueing apples to oranges, I'm not gonna flame on you for your tracker or your opinion, but you asked for someones responce
Actually, I said inspected cause you asked about onroad offroad or offroad only rigs, to I was specifying not trying to be a dick dude honestly.
i personally think that willys and trackers are from the same place. just one was epitomized from the other. i also said GP! not jeep. i think jeeps, land rovers, and trackers , land cruisers, are all in the same class. there are a few more. but tell ur story. I am not JEEPSTER! and anything an engineer didnt build is mickey mouse! only thing that will stand up in court. there is no other way of defining anything. if not for law, then anything goes. how can we chat on that. this is public domain. we have to be legal here. we want safe and healthy campers in our woods. this is the newbie site. i choose the tracker to discuss this cause i have pics. ive only been into trackers for 7 yrs. previous that it was chevs and toyotas. a few vws. and many many pieces of crap. but ive never owned a dodge. i know how they are manufactured. no tech. just shelved parts from 40 years ago. they sell looks and a name. not quality or useability. even honda and toyota figured out usability. they just dont want long lasting. dodge wants u to get ur vehicle fixed regularly or buy a new one. that is their plan since icocaine dude. gm is out to keep us working. thats why gm doesnt have huge earnings compared to the size of company. its why the american government bails them out. :) its 10 fold bigger than any other company in the world but brings in way less profit. they had to support dana just to give all auto manufactures axels. thats why ull find dana under ford dodge and chev. gm does the research and development. its government back to keep the economy running!! and japan makes cheaper copies. that is what they do. canada makes tech. thats what we do. ever hear of the avero! japan copies. we make things better. and cami is who built tracker and sidekicks not suzuki. pure canadian. im proud! i must say it was a smart idea using suzuki fo rwater proof. all bikes have to be. gm hold a big share of that company too. is why they used them. some parts where off the shelf. keys signals fuses. everything else was designed in ontario wit a super computer in 1987. im sure its comparible to an xp now. lol
you lost me at articulation. bending and twisting? jointed some how. are you talking where leafs are mounted? they call an articulating front end cause it folds n bends. lots of moving twisting folding pieces. a leaf spring can only go up and down?????? u can use leaf in an articulating axel. u only have 8inches under ur pod? thats a stock tracker with p195s. 12 inches to frame. 16 to my belly pan. mufflers at 12inches too. 30 inch tires give me over 10inch of clearance. if u hit ur axle at 8inches do u not stop? my skid pan is small 2ft x2ft. curves up another 8inches. but itll launch me if need be. i can hit an 18 inch rock and not slow down. with a pod u just keep it in the clear when driving. with a skid plate its a little more fun. u either get ur tires on it or u rip it. on a straight axle u have to get ur tires up. i can do that too. i never ever have to check whats under my truck. i still dont see how a straight axle get better traction or has any difference in the ability other than height. i can put 32 inch tires on stock. gives me 12ich of clearance. along with mighty steel skid pan. there are 3 factory skid pans under my truck. if i cant drive it, i can skid it. ive been places where nobodies ever been. like opposite side to wastelands. i was the first one through.
uve never come across a spot u wanted to jump across?? i guess IS has another advantage over a straight axle. weight!
tracker high jump: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWDL93c4tiM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ni26y5P40E&list=PL30F564C473873468
buddy clears 30 ft easy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ni26y5P40E&list=PL30F564C473873468
slow speed jump: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQWahh4hJvE&list=PL30F564C473873468
local dude: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLqZI5PHMZU
street jump: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbKfVI_0pzs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZUdeADZS5c&list=PL30F564C473873468
all these jumpers just kept driving. nothing broken.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-DDz3ZJsjw&list=PL30F564C473873468
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ni26y5P40E&list=PL30F564C473873468
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YvlYXLiFeI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtK9NBJjwE
theres 100s more. its common thing to do when u can. ask any kid on a dirt bike.
IFS has its place....for having a nice ride on and offroad (loggoing roads) and mellow wheeling. Yes you can lift them but this just leads to problems with suspension, alignment and blowing through CVs. You can argue the pro's of IFS all you want but there is a reason anyone who does any serious wheeling has a straight axle built rig, it will simply last longer, have less breakdowns and will get you farther than an IFS rig. Leaf springs can be built safe and provide great flex....change this to a linked suspension and it is even better. I guess the thousands of people that do serious wheeling must be wrong.
Back to your first question in your first post.....why does every manufacturer on the planet use IFS???......because every soccer mom and yuppie wants to have 4wheel drive for the snow or a dirt road and not feel like they are on a dirt road, they want comfort, they want to feel badass. These are the people that are buying so this is what the companies are producing.......
This whole thread is ===> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg_8knBHEyw
lol ^
i say it was funny! but why do u need to lift ur rig? are we back to rock crawling? even rovers are IS! thats not a soccer mom truck. niether are suburbans and blazers. anything thats only got 2 doors isnt a station wagon. come on!! u can do better than that. do i have to explain 4doors n kids? id like to know why? really!!!! ive had many of both. here with the club we broke a dozen straight axles, last year alone. u were there for one. ive put 40k on my beast and i beat the livin shit out of it. nothing breaks. thats the same for the chev blazers and 4x4s too. i think people think straight axles are tougher cause the outside casing is made to smash into things. they are also much easier to lift. but what makes it better in off road use? or more durable? i still havent heard an answer other than thoughts and cartoons. i am not an engineer. i post this for all to learn. and leafs dont stick to the road at all. even at 5 mph they jump instead of drop. a spring will keep that tire on the ground at any speed.
about all them off roaders! they living in the past like most people. i cant mention any new tech with out someone burning me. stay in the past and eat my dust! i dare someone to answer my question. according to u the mickey mouser are right and all the paid engineers are wrong.
off Wikipedia:Axle articulation, a vehicle's ability to flex its suspension, measured by ramp travel index
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articulation
you are thinking or an articulating joint same term different context.
articulate means to bend at a joint. thats the dictionary not me. so what joint are u referring too? i know what ur saying cause the axle is not parallel to the body. but thats just confusing everybody.
i guess the higher the articulation the more the other tires on the ground. isnt it wheel travel if u dont have an articulating front end?
I was not referring to any joints, technically the leaf bushings allow for some movement if you want to get technical however I was pointing out you are referring to a joint like a hinge while I am talking about axle articulation which are completely unrelated and there fore out of context when used improperly in an explanation, therefore hopefully bridging the gap of misunderstanding.
honestly guru wheel travel is more accurate, however it has always been expressed as axle articulation to me. guess its cause you and I went to different schools
so are we are back to wheel travel if u dont have a joint or a hinge? we all know that the axle changes its parallel from the body. but that doesnt help us compare. that is an articulating test. we do it out in sooke every year at the legion. thats how u compare or u can measure ur wheel travel. wheel travel is a fact. its not just talking through a hat. its a spec. thats real and tangible. even that test u posted is missing one thing. the tape measure! its all about wheel travel on a ridgid frame like a jeep or a tracker. i cant compare to a bending frame on that test cause even a chev pickups frame bends 6 inches on a fullsize in the front. jeep and trackers have no flex. so its all about wheel travel. trackers and jeeps dont have any flex.
I understand where you are comming from on a few points here my buddy had a tracker and just some 30" all terrains thing went every where he had a will to take it, only thing that ever broke was the bolts that hold the bottom of the strut to the knuckle cause he let my CRAZY friend drive the piss out of it in a gravel pit. however i found it under powered with 30 " tires I couldn't imagine one with 32" tires on it, plus if you amp up the power to compensate you will start to break shit.
I refer to the second part of fattys comment
"Back to your first question in your first post.....why does every manufacturer on the planet use IFS???......because every soccer mom and yuppie wants to have 4wheel drive for the snow or a dirt road and not feel like they are on a dirt road, they want comfort, they want to feel badass. These are the people that are buying so this is what the companies are producing....... "
I really have to agree with this, its for the guy who wants to do high speeds and still lock it in 4wd, or ever just have Awd in the design and still drive smoothly.
this is why every company on the face of the planet has turned that way.
I am not an engineer either I refer to things other people and manufacturers have done in the past, things that work and have been tried tested and true for decades. that's why all the Dino tech form the Paleolithic era, I am not a front runner in technology I don't develop new tec either, if you want to talk to developers talk to the guys at karnage fab, go look at the twin A arm suspension hes building for a rock buggy, now that's a front runner. I would never suggest any one here tries to do that themselves without many years of schooling under their belts.
wheel travel = flex, dont matter if your frame flexes like old fords and chevs. wheel travel is wheel travel.
it is one way guys compare apples to oranges when it comes to different rigs.
you asked which is better, realistically they both have there ups and downs.
solid axles weather on links and coil overs or strapped to leaf springs will "articulate" much easier with less money dumped into it and depending upon axle strength you can run what ever size tires you can fit with lift. However one will suffer on the highway for it, with a hard ride, possible bump steer, bogger wobble, and a plain old bumpy ride. solid axles are easier to lift and modify.
the beloved IFS will ride smooth over almost any terrain at speed including dirt roads and the highway. you are restricted to tire size depending on how much body your willing to sacrifice, and the very limited amount of lift you can attain. ifs are limited to how much "articulation" they can attain based upon their inherent design.
gaining wheel travel with a long arm ifs is just not cost effective for your average Joe blow, and being that they are fabbed together they could be Micky moused just like the rest of us. http://www.chaosfab.com/95000BJ.html
Wow another slingin match between local guru and another person with a conflicting opinion.. This site is almost as bad as pirate was for the drama.. Don't ask for opinions when you can't stand an opposing view.. You know what they say about opinions right? Sounds to me you should go back to beating on your stock vehicles doing 160kmh down a loggin road and leave modifying to the big boys.. I think both theshanergy's and beradical's points of view coincide with what most hard core off-road drivers and builders already know. Every 4 wheeler I have owned has been lifted a minimum of 2 or 3 inches some as much as 6, I owned a 77 ford with 44"s that was a tank back in high school it was lifted at the dealer when bought new by my uncle in 76.. Your point of view has some validity but legally if the vehicle passes inspection it is considered road legal by guess who ICBC. BTW if you think 4Runners are a station wagon it shows how closed minded you really are to people outside you circle of believes. There's no point discussing an issue like this with people like you with a little bit of knowledge compared to some of us that have built some amazing customized off road machines. IMHO I would chose IFS for a DD and a Solid Axle for a mostly dedicated offroader I have driven both off road and IFS can leave a lot to be desired such as lifting tires since flex isn't as good in an IFS to get the same amount of flex from and IFS compared to a Solid Axle costs way more money to get flex and lift.
TIRES will make or break you rig. often you need to lift to fit bigger tires, with that lift your ifs will have cv joint angularity, (unless you go body lift) causing wear and tear and eventual premature failure, if you don't think so this is a fact! your bigger tires will add weight needing more torque on your axles to move them also leading to premature failure.
Local Guru
I was also gonna say that up until the 4th generation of 4Runner when the 4R was redesigned before the Taco they where based on the pickup and shared pretty much everything including front fenders but not the rear of the body until 2003 so almost 20years. Plus every 4Runner has ladder frame construction which is more sought after for offroading, not uni-body like the Trackers and newer Pathfinders . Most Toyota 4x4's come with a 31X10.5 tire if you look anywhere else in the world Toyota's "4runners included" are the most widely used vehicle offroad come on even the Taliban knows they are tough. The 4Runner was one of the original SUV's like a Jeep XJ was.
BeRadical, is right on point with that last comment about the lifting causing problems as well as bigger heavier tires. You could also do a diff drop on the front but then lose precious ground clearance that you just lifted for.
Hands up for a thread that isn't kiboshed by a Guru pissing match. All who agree; say I.
I!
I want to point out that although the trackers in your youtube videos keep on driving doesnt mean that the shocks arent blown out all your ball joints are sloppy as fuck and the thing wobbles as it drives down the road. I've personally watched the aftermath of jumps like that.
I
well lets get this straight. i started this thread!!! if u want to make ur own. all the power to you. if u cant back your statement with a reasonable argument. ur just making my point. thanks potato! i didnt start this thread to turn it into a pissing match! its about sharing knowledge. both sides! im trying to help the newbies. it is an argument. im hear to share new tech. cause all i see is ancient obsolete stuff and i just asked why. i see only straight axle guys bitching and not backing what they say with any kind of facts. other than wrong ones. living in the seventies must be fun! gas is cheap and theres no real road laws and u can drink and drive and shoot all at the same time. but them days have gone with the dinosaur. at least radical has good arguments. he researches and backs his points. ive owned many older straight axle toyotas and chevs. back in the 80s. this thread isnt about rock climbers or anything that shouldnt be on the public roads. theres a rule of thumb at icbc to not get sued. u cant weld between the front suspension and the back. its that simple to be legally responsible or not. im sharing all my tricks here. thats taken a life time to learn. just because u dont agree doesnt make my opinion wrong. im asking for you to make an argument for yours.
some messed up facts:
i wasnt talking about the older toyotas with straight axles. even toyota went to ifs. but when they did they cheaped out. they break. read energys post here. ive jumped my tracker a few times. the body has hit the frame but thats because of rust. they dont break. huge McPherson struts. the little trucks can carry more then they weigh. older ones are half tons with huge wheel travel. my 2003 has a 3/4 ton payload plus passengers. and weighs only 2200lbs. close enough. im not a nissan guy. never owned one. ive had to fix a bunch and they do got good power. all trackers have rigid frames. 2x8inch ladderbox. no flex what so ever. only some jeeps and trackers in america have ridged frames. interestingly enough the grand crapachie is a uni body with straight axles. there is no flex in them either. the toyotas and the the the other dodge waggoner style do. only reason ladder box frame is sought after is because they r clean to build off of. tracker is considered a light truck. the 95 and newer 4 runners are not. i get all the facts from wiki! im not posting opinions. im just sharing facts. lots ive figured out myself over the years but most are from others.
ill start a new post on tires. what does bigger mean to you? i personally like army tires. 6x30 to 8x42. a tracker was made for for 6x32. stock. gives 1ft of clearance. in the front.
i admit if ur building an offroad rig to drive on ur own property or trailer it then straight axles are a cheap no brainer. kids in high school built them. if u want to beat me on a trials course and still make it home then u better get studying. and i just drive a stock tracker. my cost is still next to zero on my beast. and ill take it every where any of u will go. if you think im off? theres about 5 trial runs in ext alone that someone has made. the abyss is world renown. there is also a rock crawler trails there to. the famous blood fart. blood fart is winch material. ive never seen anyone just drive it. does that really count. i can winch or drag my truck anywhere. i got 3 skid pans. thems the trails in our own back yard. loggers were in there and made a mess. hard to see the trails now. and the only reason one needs big tires is the big ruts. but the pumpkin in the front is a bulldozer in ruts. where as ifs with a skid pan just slides. do we rock climb more than ruts? its rare i have to rock climb. i know i hunt for rocks to climb. i got no worries under mine. and thats the real reason most want to lift their truck. ill say again tires and skid pans will get u way farther with out messing with the original specs of the vehicle. if u really want to drive a wagon in the woods then have fun turning around. and still chev has the tightest turning radius overall its vehicles.
toyota with its 18 ft of truck can take a standard 31. the tracker takes a standard 30 and is only 12ft. can not anyone do the math. really its made for a 6x32. thats a 1 ft clearance. i dont have jeep specs but i do know that any jeep made in the same years has 16 inch longer wheel base and doesnt compare to ifs turning radius. did the new jeeps go ifs? i bet they did. thats why new price almost double in the last decade. ifs to build bigger is way more technical but this is canada. this is the west coast. we lead the pack. not in off-roading from what ive been hearing. this whole thread turned into a crawling match. rock crawling is apart of off-roading but really its specialized. not just throwing some new tires on and screwing some tin on underneath and mounting a winch in the box or bumper. ya run it underneath aswell with rollers. steel cable will eat a frame in seconds without.
so i have to keep adding the numbers for every one. i wont even mention 145hp and 2200lbs in an 03 tracker 4cyl. is the same as 250hp in a jeep. but jeeps only have 180hp to 200hp unless u put in a turbo then u get 245hp. nad thats the heavier jeep. tracker are not under powered at all. even my 92 has 100hp an weighs in at just over 2000lbs. the jeep yj weighs in at just over 3000 lbs. they are comparable in power. if u go 6cyl add another 300 lbs to both. the 6cy weighing in at 3400 lbs has 180 hp. 150hp in the 4cy at 3000lbs. specs are almost identical. trackers made expeditionary models with lower gears. hard to find. easy to spot. the older ones with roof racks are. they dont like going over 100kmh. are most jeeps auto or standard? u do want auto for off road use. u can lock up the axle by pressing on the break.
weight also makes easy math for figuring gas mileage. its relevant. all gasoline engines are basically as efficient as they gets. so its about gears and weight. lower gears makes for better economy at lower speeds and on hills. jp is 50% heavier and over all 50% less efficient. i could choose any to compare but i know the specs. whats under powered are toyotas. s10 n broncos have slightly better economy. and have way more go. the tracker runs about 5 bucks an hour at 1.20$ a liter. its about 35 mpg city or highway. according to the net jeeps are getting around 15mpg. trackers are 28mpg. so almost double the fuel savings. i wont compare the bigger vehicles. but if u use the hp it all goes back to weight ratios. jeeps do have and oldr design of engine. it might be the reason for the horrid gas mileage. i cant compare 2000 and newer. i havent had the experience yet. please post if u do. hp, weight, fuel economy!.
in my opinion. weight is the killer of everything. from jumping to clutches. i think its weight to cost in the end. brakes clutch ball joints suspension. body damage and especially ur foot print u leave behind. leaving ruts and and crushing plant life is almost the same as littering. be mindful of harewood plains they run the length of the island on the east side within 10 miles of the water. it takes a 100 yrs to grow back. its the moss covered clearings. most are protected. in early spring they bloom with micro flowers.
i guess u all missed the point. why build? why jack it up way past safe levels? almost all vehicles can get 2in suspension and 2 inch body lifted cheaply. that puts 35s on a toyota. and 33s on a tracker. do u really need bigger tires. unless ur hauling weight, u can skid ur belly and ass over just about anything if u have skid pans. i had a pepsi sign on the belly of my subaru. now that was fun till i broke in half jumping it. they are quite heavy for a small car. a sedan legacy comes in at 2700lbs.
in my opinion straight axles are cheap and obsolete unless ur building a rock crawler. which makes ur vehicle illegal on almost all paved and dirt roads on Vancouver island. unless u buy the kits. 10 grand conversion and ull still need ties and a winch. 99.99% of all roads are not rock crawling. and getting by gates is about tight turning and how narrow is ur vehicle. we call them yota roads. pre 84 toyota were only 2 seats wide. just like a tracker. i have a big truck too. but the tracker is the gate key. i am the guy who punches in them side roads. on virgin land skid pans are a must. now days the quaders are usually in first. its easier to find a trail out than in by far.
ive talked to Chrysler. only reason they keep straight axles is so u can turn them into articulating units. spend the money! 10 grand per axle! thats what they want u to do. out of most peoples leagues here. its cj= civilian jeep. they dont want u to have the real thing. 99.99% of us drive legal and insured vehicles. im trying to share tech, safety and accessibility. most people have a suv or a pick up that they drive on the road. leafs and straight axle in the front are not safe at all! in the 1960s maybe. the tracker is the closest thing u can get to a canadian armed forces unit. iltis bombardier makes them. made for trees and mountains. canda and Belgium army jeep! u can usually see one on the way to lakes at cfb nanaimo!
Here we go again? You should just start you own forum where you post your bad grammar tangents that give people headaches and won't be bothered by people with just as much experience as you with differing opinions I have owned and driven all types of vehicles. Heck I used to take my 81 Toyota Celica up Harbourview RD in Sooke to Sheilds and Crabapple lakes getting pulled and tugged at times by my friends you take any vehicle anywhere as long as you don't care what breaks. My 2nd gen 4runner went everywhere my buddy in his Samurai both stock and stock sized tires. Realty is if your having to winch and slid your tracker on it's belly you really not treading lightly on the trail and will lead to closures to areas of access which should be the motto of any 4 Wheeler worth a grain of salt. You can find loads of videos of people jumping 4Runners, Tacomas etc in you tube that doesn't prove that you truck is tougher than any other you just have been lucky is all.
well thank you for the comment, I am doing my best to just not take the rock crawler thing personally. but I have been building my rig for 4 years as funds permit, it has been apart and off the road for the entire time, my build was solely dual purpose I have used oem and certified aftermarket parts and assembled them in the safest way possible to suit my wants and needs, and remain safe, ie no bump-steer, no death wobble, limiting your body roll in sharp high speed turns. I have had professional fabricators weld all critical pieces, (besides my horrid shock mounts). all in the name of being safe legit and not being sued. the shock mounts will get replaced before long.
I don't care about going over 120kmph nor do i care about your opinion on how someones "built" vehicle looks illegal it must be! I really don't care about what size tire I have as long as its working. I want my thing to look good (sure call me a FAG I dare you) and work well on road and off. you can't sit there and tell me that solid axles are unsafe! or illegal! the only new jeep to go ifs in the front is the liberty! and it still has leaf springs in the back! the jk unlimited rubicon has a fully built dana 44 in it from the factory with lockers and 32" tires and it handles like a fucking turd on the highway! straight out of the factory!
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142412788732390680457903926329...
my point is if you like to go fast (which I don't (anymore)) then stick with the tracker. you wanna take your time and enjoy the scenery then get a jeep and take the top off! and don't go over fifty! fuck the fast lane and the asshole who drive in it!
There's a reason IFS is used on cars - comfort. Aside from that (and smoother landings after going airborne)... I can't really think of any reason IFS would be better off road.. but then again most of us aren't pro enough to do our off roading at 160kph while airborne and making perfect damage free landings without even wearing out our ball joints so this thread may not apply to us anyhow.
There was a statement made about off road rally trucks with IFS - true, but obviously heavily built and demanding different performance aspects. They are all about speed and soft landings but realistically that's not how most of us on the island drive off road - if we did your argument would make sense. We generally off road at reasonably low speeds around here and do a lot of crawling etc. Now with that being said, take that inferior rally truck and attempt to climb obstacles at low speed - performance would likely suffer and IFS would not be doing it any favors. I guess it all boils down to build quality and the intent of your adventures. I can see how IFS would be suitable for those who like to go break neck speeds and do jumps etc, but I truly believe most of us would benefit more from a solid front axle instead of the alternative. I say this because when I go wheeling, I constantly see IFS struggling slightly more over obstacles in comparison to me (comparing a 4-runner with the same amount of lift and the same tire size - so it's as close to apples to apples as I can get with two different vehicles). One important thing to remember is that you don't have to be a rock crawler to use articulation to your advantage... it comes into play with every obstacle you cross - Guru; you make it sound like you only need to articulate when rock crawling.
Now without making up false facts and saying that IFS is tougher (I've had opposite experiences) and ironically enough with one of the same vehicles Guru noted earlier in the discussion. I use to off road in a Blazer with IFS - what a piece of sh*t. Torsion bars, ball joints etc. wore out every time I took it off the pavement. Not only that, it only went half the places my Jeep does. From my experiences, the when I drove a Blazer with IFS the tow strap always seemed to be hooked to the front of my rig - now that I drive a Jeep I no longer have that problem. We all learn from our experiences; this is where mine have gotten me.
i do start the threads. ur welcome to start ur own. u dont have to read mine. ive at least researched. to bad facts cause u headaches. its posted to hear your facts and ur opinions. but if ur going to post an opinion please back it. otherwise ur just wasting everyone time. is my grammar that bad. its a lot of typing. lol!
buggys come in all size categories for the baha. or anywhere. 99.9999% are ifs. i just mentioned u can jump! i posted some links cause someone didnt believe it was possible. its not like u have too! 160 km is standard for highway travel. dont got a governor in ur car? why would u argue that? full size ford broncos come stock with double shocks. i wonder what for?
about dragging on a skid plate. its smooth and the lbs / sq inch is so little its less than ur foot tracks. u tend to only drag over rocks or fallen trees. every bodies got a winch. my 2seat wide opens all the trails. its why we call them yota trails. that is pre 84 toyotas, when u could buy one for under 4 grand. u could buy 3 for the price of a chev. this is why toyota got popular and the oil scare a bunch of years b4. we all used to call them jap crap. now its china crap.
re byte me: i was talking about jumping everything. only reading what u want doesn't help ur argument. ifs is capable of jumping is all i was saying! i just use the trackers as an example. someone didnt believe u could jump! how and the hell did u miss the Subaru of ford bronco comments? i only mentioned jumping to prove how tuff they are. and 95 n newer toyota wagons are built lighter and weaker. ask shane energy. his post states how he keeps breaking them. so put 35s on urs and follow me around and ull soon see! i had many toyotas i loved them in there time. but in each generation things change. i d love to take a new short box toyota pick up. see how the new ifs works.
please when speaking articulation use wheel travel. un less u have an articulating front end. ur just confusing every one. its wheel travel unless u have an articulating front end. thats the off road jargon.
rock crawling is another category. unless u spend 20 grand above the cost of your vehicle u cant drive it on the road. get into an accident and ull get sued. its happened 1000s of times. u cant weld in between the suspension. from the front to the rear. it would have to pass csa. thats 50 grand to do. it will void ur insurance. so it means u need a trailer and ur own land.
im just trying to share the law and safety. stock will get more people into the sport. by a 1000 fold. there are other clubs for rock crawlers!
ill include a pic. blazers are great vehicles. so are broncos. almost nothing compares. i had a 70 with 375 hp an a dana 66 locker full time. it was the family tractor. it could go 160 km on any kind of terrain. any u boys from duncan will remember this truck. we turned it into a pick up. put the gas tank in the box!
theres a big difference in building a vehicle or just jacking it up. one is safe and cheap the other is cool for sure but illegal on the roads. if u want legal is extremely expensive.
lighten up people! i havent bashed any one vehicle. im trying to make this a sport not some hill billy beer drinkin banquet. if its legal we will get more people coming out.
trackers can go on the highway legally. they sure arent a speed or power house. i sure wouldnt drive it over 110 km. they got bull low if u like to crawl as well.
they are my threads! i started them. and it was faty in his toyota that mention soccer mom wagons. prior to 95 toyota wagons were built like the trucks. energy is the one thats says his keeps breaking.
this isnt a rock crawling or beer drinking site. its a newbie site. its about tourism, legal and safety for all. there are many other sites for rock crawlers and illegal road machines.
It is a site for whoever wants to post on whatever topic.....from newbie to extreme......from logging road exploring trips to tree rubbing. Who cares??? I like the harder stuff and others may like the mellower stuff or whatever they are comfortable or their rig is capable of.
I wouldnt say it is just a newbie site, without having others that have knowledge and experience no one will learn.
It is a place for people to find others that like wheeling..... all levels of it.
this is the newbie site. there are other sites for rock crawlers. we have to draw the line at breaking the law. none of us want to use a trailer here. or spend 20g on rock crawling gear. or just use private lands. i like the public roads n trails too. crown land is public. u must have insurance and drive a road worthy vehicle. 99.99% of all do.
then whats the point of this site? just the same as the others? im trying to get people involved! the other clubs call us the newbie sites. its the newest site that covers the island! we got stuck with the new guys n gals too! im hear to help the uninformed. to get people to use what they have out into the woods! to not letting everyone think u need to spend 1000s and jack a truck up to unsafe heights. to understand the tech that has come to be since the 70s! it wont be long before u cant find straight axles.
Fatty is right, this is a site for all levels. I'm not sure where you got the idea that it's aimed at noobs. Honestly, these posts are starting to get out of hand. Some of them are pretty off.. and some.. I don't even know. localguru - tone it down. You clearly need an outlet, but I'm not sure this is the place to do it. From what I've seen, most of these threads have devolved into some sort of play ground pissing match with little of worth being communicated.
If you'd like to explore the idea of setting up a personal blog where you can write these long-winded posts, I would be more than happy to set something up for you off-site. Just let me know via pm.
In attempts to contribute something positive to the topic at hand. I personally feel that solid axles are considerably more useful for the type of wheeling this island offers. I drive an IFS 4runner at the moment, but it's mainly just cost/time considerations keeping me from jumping into a SAS. As has been said however, to each their own. Not everyone wants to wheel hard - a good amount of the draw for me is simply exploring the mountains.
i start the threads with research n facts. ur letting ignorance rule.
all the other clubs call us the newbie site and send them here. im trying to bring more people here. the drinking driving illegal guys. just scare most others off! most dont even know the law here.
you call it a pissing match. its called refuting. and around heres its refuting to the ignorant and drunk.
ya said u feel like the the straight ales are best for the island! thats a good argument.
so! here what the folks at dodge have to say when they went ifs! this isnt me! this is the guys who make all ur jeeps! take it from the horses mouth! read for yourself!
http://www.wkjeeps.com/wk_suspension.htm
I would like to take the time to chime in here. firstly as a society that is run freely and openly and being that we are simply users it is not up to us to lay claim to this place. kind of like the woods.
you try to say that we aren't like the other sites here (perhaps you feel you've been ridiculed in the past over some of your openly brazen opinions or ideas,) but you yourself are leading the edge of ridicule and angst and plain old one lopsidedness. while on the opposing side of things the guys on island are way more accepting of people for people than you could ever be. nobody will ever want to play with you and personally if i ever see your tracker stuck in a ditch I would rather run it the fuck over monster-truck style than pull you out just to prove my point about suspension, articulation, wheel travel and the old hated solid axle you love so much.
you are the only person trying to drive people who don't know any better into the deep woods in their cars to get stuck and or lost. get a life buddy seriously go blog about your opinions somewhere else cause the people around here aren't buying it.
you are also the only person who is confused by the term articulation, it is applicable to both ifs and solid axles in the same respect because a solid axle is still jointed to the chassis via control arms that run fore and aft. i would also like to point out that if you knew half of what you claimed I most certainly wouldn't be the one to have to tell you so! grow the fuck up and get a life, just cause you saw/ read it on wiki doesn't mean its accurate as information on wiki can be modified by anyone! even someone as misinformed as yourself.
oh and i and also a horrid speller and have pretty bad grammar, but I spend one single minute PROOF Reading before i go and hit that little button labeled POST its not hard you should try it some time you will never go back I swear!
better yet go chat with these boys and ask your dumb ass questions
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=356670
this may not be legal but it sure is cool
BeRadical: Thanks for saying what everyone's thinking.
Is there a Guru-Remover that can be used to make this site a better place??
It even starts off with: "Here's my arguement" as the first paragraph of the thread.
I guess the BS was anticipated.
Well stated BeRadical... Great post TheShanergy...I'm done with posting in LocalGuru's "personal threads"
Everyone have a good day and keep her rubber side down!
we weren't arguing floating articulating front ends. the arguement is why every manufacturer on the planet makes ifs!
i talked to damen chrysler. they call their jeep a car. straight axles are used in most modern jeeps because its easy to lift (over - under spring) them and to make them articulating Floating axle). i havent seen one guy on this site with an articulating front end yet other than rick. and he had to sell it because he couldnt drive down the road with out getting pulled over. it was in a 2009 jeep ruby. 12000$ on top of the jeep and tires. radical put up some pics. even the humvey has ifs. im old willys fan. i like straight axles as much as the next guy. but why are they every where but in an articulate front end? i havent heard any real arguments. best i heard was weight down low! because a jeep doesn't flex. its common for anyone to put an articulating front end in them. we all get the idea of articulation. but until u go to free floating articulating front end then how is it better? remember costs! 10 gs per axle! its a cheap way to lift ur truck. a mchearson strut to up ifs is about 200 bucks per to have 1ft wheel travel. if u add airbags u can push that to 18. any leaf springs got maybe 8 at best and that would be some light leaf. i admit.to drive with full extension ifs is a bit of a joke. but when u needed it. its there. thats 10inches of single wheel travel over any leaf. its also backed by a spring not a leaf. so the tires always on the ground. leafs tend to jump even the smallest drops at the slowest speed. a solid axle front end coil springs are common. and can have air bags. but without a free floating articulating front end. when one side goes up so does the other to the max of ur wheel travel. radical u keep showing pics of articulating front ends. why? ur confusing the argument. we werent on that subject! articulating front ends are way out of 99.9999 % of the people. when i talked to the boys about wheeling ifs they all said its about control. its about angle of accent! if u dont have the traction to go slow. most off roaders are spinning at 30 degrees angle of declination. so any higher u have to have momentum. thats speed! thats wheels in the air. u guys laughed when i said jump. what did u think dukes of hazard? watch any off roading on youtube. u can beat ifs. u cant beat straight axel the same way. and last year alone over a half dozen straight axels broke. no ifs so far. its really sad u have to make ur arguments personal. ur just making urself look bad. radical was the only one to at least try to make an argument. calling names cause you dont like what u read is being a kid. im sharring knowledge. what did u share?
in the end having only one universal per tire on a straight axle tends to break under power when at tightest turn. hard to say! when you're at the sharpest turn under power universals tend to break on a straight axle. warranty problems is why chev and every other motor company changed to ifs! they break in tight turns under power even at low speeds. ifs also has tighter turning radius and takes a beating! it wasn't till 2005 dodge designed instead of just using off the shelf parts. dana makes most all straight axles. i am talking pre 2000!
read from dodge themselves when they went to ifs in 2005!
http://www.wkjeeps.com/wk_suspension.htm
until u own both. u dont have a clue. well the 69 kaiser willys jeep is up for sale. 125 000 miles on it! not km. its got a good top. actual factory installed Buick 225 cu in (3.7 L) V6 Dauntless but made by willys. its weighs in at 1800lbs gets over 30 mpg. the diffs are so tight they feel like they are locked. nicest straight axles around. its body is heavy gauge metal. its got some rust. but its thick metal. theres wont be any holes for another 50yrs. it has the fold down window. its as small as a tracker. its a foot shorter than any modern jeep. its got 33 x10s and some extra rims come with it. funny how and old willys and trackers have exact rims. rear cage isnt included speedo stopped working. its only a 3 speed with low and high. gas tank has been moved to under the back seat. has a 8000 lb winch. stock height is huge. this trucks been in the family for awhile now. it runs good. odd bit of blue if u step on it. slow to warm up. pulls a little when u hit the breaks. i played with it all last weekend and didnt have to put it into 4 wheel drive. its been modified in the dumbest ways. someone has put in a glove box. bullet proof gas tank under the back seat. gun rack dash! it does have a hitch. but rack doesnt go with the truck. first 4000$ takes. it is the last year of willys. it is the original jeep. anything else dodge calls a car. seats 4. it is very small compared to a dodge or amc jeep. its listed at 5000$ these are rare and extremely capable. it will jump too! lol. with leafs and a straight axle. it aint pretty but it could be some nice bush toy. it is only a quarter ton. willing to trade for 50s to early 80s ford kaiser jeep: M151A2 or M151 MUTT (Military Utility Tactical Truck) can all see the connection with our local iltis vw and kaiser ford and willys?
what dodge has to say about ifs when they started putting it in all their vehicles
http://www.wkjeeps.com/wk_suspension.htm
It was just getting peaceful here...
You guys spend wayyy too much time on this sh*t
What all the editing Guru?? Getting your facts straight?
is this the best argument you have? i didnt edit anything! i tried to end the post! i take it you didn't like what dodge had to say. lol! it seems like you dont have arguement and just want to make me look bad! sorry man, the facts speak for themselves! it seems you only want to talk about your truck! this was a post on axels. u made me refute the dumbest things! what dates and where things were built is way off topic! ur the one making it hard for people to read because u make people re read! instead of trying to make me look bad. try making your own thread on toyotas! i want to learn not argue! im here to share information. not nick pick stupid details that no one cares about! and again i tried to end the post here as well! my conclusion is posted! ill remove this when u remove urs!!! facts are timeless and defamation is obvious! any one can research my facts! and anyone can see you dont have an argument!
heres another fact thats going to piss ya off!
to all u knuckle heads! articulation is a joke to speak of unless its has a real single point articulation. 10 grand! you still need weight for traction. just because the wheels sitting on the ground doesnt mean it has traction. ya need weight for traction! ya need weight to make the diff lock up into posi! only single point articulation does! at 10 grand! wheel travel with weight scale might be considered a test. but 2000lbs on one side and 10lbs on the other doesnt mean both tires have the same traction! and thats why ifs is better even in rock climbing! other than single point articulated axle! articulation test only counts if its single point articulation!
try for yourself if you dont understand! put one tire up on a rock and get a stick and see how easy it is to lift the other tire! 6 of us have already did this here on the club since i started this post. none had any weight on that lower tire. no weight no traction! whats the point of arguing articulation then! ifs are independent: any tire on the ground has equal weight and traction! its what makes mcpherson struts amazing things! if this isnt enough for you. talk to mcphearson. you can buy that traction at different heights and lengths. not just the length of the strut but where its still holding weight! i wasnt going to share this here! but u up the game! you wont be able to bully me away!
I have been guilty of chiming in and being a contributor to the BS a couple of times, but how far does this need to go?
It's just going to ruin this site if all we focus on is trying to one up each other. It's very tedious and frankly getting quite annoying. Why start something off with 'here's something else that going to piss you off'?
Let's focus on using this site for what it was designed for and cut the sh!t. If all you want to do is argue, go find a chat room and argue on there. There are plenty of 15 year old girls willing to battle wits I'm sure.
As mentioned, I have contributed and said a few out of line comments - apologies for that Guru; but I do think you are very argumentative and feel that you would be more liked if you respected (or at least accepted) other people opinions. I feel that this is the main reason all of these pissing matches have originated.
/End Thread
Im just stating facts and speaking openly on what ive learned for the newbies! i started this thread! im getting bullied here to not speak the truth! i wont be bullied by people with there head stuck in the sand. i am local i am responsible! my 40 yrs of experience should be appreciated! i do this to try to open up land for us as a sport! them old 4wheelers are dying off! so i have to be factual and honest! theres a greater thing happening here! i want the legions to control the land! please be a member there and support the truth and not the myths! my grandpa drives ifs and know all about skinny tires! and he had more straight axles then ive ever even seen!
conclution:
in conclusion skinny tires can get more height and more traction. articulation without a single point is a joke! ifs has better traction and driveability while having a lower centre of gravity. making it way safer on any road! ifs has less catastrophic failures do to tight turning and higher horsepower than a straight axle!. bull low doubles most hp! if you trun sharp and put the power to it you take a chance of blowing that universal or cv! that is catastrophic failure! u might not make it home! and thats really the line beside safety and cost!
But here's the thing, just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean their head is in the sand. People probably think the same about you.
Sure, there are newbies here who might have some things to learn - but I'm definitely not a newbie and I certainly don't agree with all the 'facts' you have presented. I do think that a few of your 'facts' are a bit misleading. Which ones, I won't elaborate as I don't want to have to defend myself from being told my opinion is wrong... but that what a lot of it is - nothing more than opinion. I would rather not argue Guru, I just think it's important we realize that opinions are like @ssholes; everyone's got one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2_xAotTEyY 9:56 IFS superiority...
Exactly IslandExploration right on the head everyone has a right to their own opinions because everyone has had different experiences than another person has.
having an ifs truck i have a few comments to make here, first of all there are two types of travel.
I call the first bump travel, this is when both the left and right wheel move up or down at the same time.
The second type of travel i call flex travel, this is when one side moves up and the other moves down. both ifs and sfa have both types of travel.
sfa will also inherently have much more articulation travel than it will bump travel. ifs has the same amount of bump and articulation travel. ifs can also have much more bump travel because the center line of the wheels is not constrained by the axle. on an sfa rig the axle has to have clearance to move up, so in smaller rigs the engine size is limited, or up travel is reduced due to lack of clearance.
Another thing I'd like to bring up here is the action of the sway bar, the sway bar resists flex travel. Ifs has a higher resistance to flex travel than sfa does. This is because the sfa can exert leverage over the spring when only one side of the axle is being forced to compress, because the spring is not directly inline with the force being exerted on the tire. All of the force exerted on the tire in an ifs suspension is exerted to the spring with no extra leverage, in fact if the travel of the suspension is not parallel with the force from gravity, there will be even less force exerted on the spring, inhibiting wheel travel. this key difference is what makes sfa articulate much more than ifs. theoretically ifs could have more travel than sfa, if the limiting factor was that the axle was angled 90 from its original position, but at the same time this is a ridiculous scenario
The main reason for moving away from sfa and to ifs, is the oem's were able to make it much easier to make a safe vehicle, its a lot easier to control and tune ifs than sfa, and that means they can do it for cheaper because they spend less time doing research and development. ifs works very well at speed, because the force generated is much higher and allows the suspension to move fully. that being said, at low speed a solid axle will ride more smoothly and not loose traction as easily because the wheels travel up and down and the suspension is not fighting the leverage that ifs has to deal with. the angle of the tire is also not important, unless you aren't airing down, an aired down tire will conform to an off camber surface and also provide travel in itself. another reason to have have big wide tires.
if you are confused, I can post up a beam model and show you why ifs and sfa are different.
I feel like instead of stating facts local guru is trying to make up for his insecurities by bashing everyone that comments on this thread.
also when your tracker ifs flexes better than my meat wagon let me know.
there are no opinions, only the way each one works and which has more wheel travel in each scenario.
Too bad he got das boot after pulling the internet equivallent of standing in a room screaming over every one else until every one listens. I have to say d farms you fluently explained in terms everyone can understand just what the duck the difference is. I applaud you. ..